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What the hell. Did you even inform the original proposer Janty F or is this another hijacked proposal without explaining what you are trying to sneakily add in? It's well known by you that proposal has been lost in the chaos of previous weeks and that Janty actually requested it to be debated and voted on..

1. The budget of the Government of the eNetherlands consists of all the tax income from the previous term, plus 50% of all other income (Concessions, Donations, Monetary market program).
2. The remaining 50% other income can be added to the government budget after approval by Congress, this is not allowed if the emergency fund is not at the required threshold.

--> Completely ridiculous, there is truly no rational reason for this except obstructing the functioning of Government in which you are not in yourself. Why can't Government decide over what it's very own budget like it has been since DAY 0 of eRepublik?

And some other questionable things as well, made 'palpable' by adding in some things about common sense budget rules regarding external orgs (thanks Janty for the idea) but badly expressed. Definite no both on the content and the way this is being done!

Have you noticed the DNB increase by 1,000 Gold and 4 millions? That's much worse than the first two articles, because we do not effectively comply with it, without paralyzing our economy for possibly years.

debate i referred to was not started by janty f. and i had contact with creator of that debate some time ago.

secondly this is a new debate not the same debate.

with congressional approval gov can still have access to the full additional budget, and that is what the other income sources are.

But what is it the reasoning for this? What happens if Congress doesn't approve? No more programs for citizens and that 50% will ''vanish'', hidden away by evil Congress from citizens? Why would I even care to do the Monetary Market any more or re-negotiate concessions? In addition to the steeply increased EF limit this is crippling Government for the time being and therefore conclusively a very dangerous proposal. I hope you are aware of that, or well I don't know whether or not it is being worse of not knowing it or being malevolent. 😛

if i wanted to cripple gov i would have put 100% of the other income behind congress approval and required it to have 2/3 majority, if gov has a good plan for the money it's unlikely congress would vote against.

and nothing in the proposal is set in stone.

Yeah but you can only cripple something if it becomes truth, and even putting up 100% to a vote would be too ludicrous for you 😛

Except you know very well odan, that filling DNB with all those millions would take (possibly) years to do, so your statement about full additional is factually incorrect.

This is quite different from the debate you refer to, as it invents a lot of things, which were never debated at all, and which are only added in to hurt our economy by stashing money instead of spending it

https://www.erepublik.com/en/article/-congress-mon-policies-proposal-2693235/1/20

For example, increase size of DNB from 1,000 Gold and 1 million to 2 000 Gold and 5 millions efficiently paralyzes a ton of future governments. Now I would be okay with increase of currency to 2 millions (as we are already there), but - such a steep increase is impossible to fulfill, as we do not even have those money.

Or emptying all orgs only for next government to refill them again.

that is not the debate i am referring to.

i'm open to suggestions. but an increase is required imo.

Well, that is the original debate about monetary policies, so you should refer to it 😉 .

And while I personally agree with some increase, as stated above - the increase you propose is impossible to fulfill even long-term. I recommend you to consult Finance Sheet, or read some MoF articles, because you invent imaginary numbers here.

Also, as stated by others - excess money on non-EZ orgs are being reduced (and will be reduced more, if I will have chance to continue with my monetary politics), and money is being more and more invested in our citizens. And investing in our citizens is always better than hoarding money in some vault like Smaug. So any proposal aimed at reducing investments to our citizens and focusing more on becoming Smaug has automatic NO from me.

that debate had a vote so how could that be the one i was referring to?

saying money will be reduced and having it into law so it is forced are 2 diffirent things. 1 can be forgotten about or be just empty promises. the other ensures it happens.

even with these changes money can still be invested into citizens.
and we need an EF, making sure it is up to current monetary standards is only logical.

"that debate had a vote so how could that be the one i was referring to? "

... well, you should refer to it, and you should also learn rom the mistake I made there - I tried to push too many changes at once, and that naturally did not work, as people, who disliked part of the changes voted NO, even though they liked the rest. Hence why my next monetary proposals (once this craziness is done with) will be a bit limited in their scope 😉

"even with these changes money can still be invested into citizens."

Well, no, because literally all our Treasury will have to become part of DNB, if this passes. As I already stated, all the numbers in your proposal are totally arbitrary and random, and fulfilling them would cause a lot of harm.

A year ago we started to invest our loney into our citizens rather thank banking it. Our citizens are our first line of defense. The money in the bank will not help us.

Also, Orgs like e.g. The minister of defense are using the surplus money to work the monetary market thus essentially are part of the MM program.

"Our citizens are our first line of defense. The money in the bank will not help us."

Wiser words were never spoken.

I agree with most. The money limits are quite steep though.

Some stuff has its merits. Finding a way to limit 'leaks' of money to other orgs so that it's not accounted any more. But these numerous extreme limits counterbalance (and much more) any of that.

Looks good.

5 Million might be a little too much but certainly a good goal.

What are we going to do with 5 million cc in the DNB?

Never saw Scrooge McDuck?

well thought out proposal, like many said already the emergency fund might be a little large.

Looks like it has aspects of the one I proposed a while ago. Can’t recall being contacted though to work it out or come up with a joint proposal although it briefly referred to at the time.

As for the proposal at hand here; several parts are out off the question while others are totally different. Can’t agree on this as it is at all. I will post a variant fitting my earlier ideas later as I have to attend RL matters first.

it indeed has aspects of that.

interested to see what new stuff you have and if we are able to fit it into the proposal.

As we said a while ago: it looks like we can come up to an agreement on it or at least close to each other. For now lets not rush to much on it as it is in all our interest to have this kind off matters recorded with care.
The main goal of my earlier proposal, that I feel is not represented in this one was in the fact we could end up with the need to end gov programs the moment some extra income was lost. We don't want that. Also we discussed the unwanted capital on several orgs which we deem unwanted. Lets be cautious however on how to deal with that to prevent unnecessary administrative actions every term.
Last but not least MoD and EF need to be updated as it does not fit current needs.

As said I will post a variant but it might be wise to work a while on it so we have a mature proposal in a while that can be voted on rather than a half one from either one of us.

Some issues popped up yesterday I had to attend and due to which I’m away a large part today as well sadly. Will try to post tonight but will depend on developments today 🙁.

I hope you will consult with actual Minister of Finances as well. Because author of this proposal did not, hence why his numbers on monetary org reserves are totally out of place, bringing even the good parts of the proposal down with them.

and what would be considered good numbers by you?

Where to start:

a) Remove "50% of this and that". It is much easier (and it makes more sense, due to the fact why people usually make donations) to add donations income to "non-approval" section, and take the entire concessions in that separate "approval" group. Otherwise, people donating to government to support programs could find themselves being unable to do so, due to pointless legal difficulty.

b) Also, we need to separate between Concession (100 k) and tax returns done due to concessions (which range from 50k up to 100k based on the Iranian economy). This has never been properly done (I should fix that actually in the Sheet), so it needs to be carefully defined. What I suggest - I use the term "Actual Tax Income" in Finance Sheet, which sums up together everything we get from all kinds of taxes (including medal tax). So I would use that term and that number and put it into the Law.

c) The second part of paragraph 2 repeats, what is said in paragraph 8. Hence why they should be joined, or one of them removed.

d) 100,000 NLG on MoD is laughably low, as that is not even budget for one month. In my experience, it is good for ministries to have reserves for three months (not less, not more). I base this number on the fact how long can occupation (which would take away our tax income) last without determination becoming a problem. Of course, if we were occupied, spendings would be eventually lowered, but you cannot immediately cease all spendings during one day. Hence why monetary reserves on ministries need to be created. For MoD, I would argue 500 000 NLG as their budget (+- 10%, so it is not immediately illegal, when some government has 499,999 NLG there)

e) Fo the same reason, I would set up budgets for MoHA and CP org. Why MoD org can have a budget, but thse other two orgs (which also spent money) need to be emptied all the time? For these two orgs, I would argue 100-150 000 NLG should be enough. All in all, MoHA spendings quite change during individual months, and separate budget on CP org would allow CP to introduce his own plans (if he has any).

f) The administration of emptying all the orgs only to fill some of them later the same day seems pointless to me. That point is unacceptable.

g) The DNB reserves - as I said, we currently have 2,000 Gold and 2 million currency there. Just by that logic, THIS should be the maximum increase for DNB, as we simply cannot afford more without years-long investments. For the sake of better transition, I would argue to increase it to 1,500 Gold and 1,5 million first, and then increase it later, if DNB manages to get filled a bit more again.

h) The paragraph 9 with "unused budget" will never work, and will always be bad. Should be removed months ago.

To not be harsh, the proposal has some good parts (like the fact Gold expenses would be regulated in a way - something I desire to be implemented for quite a long time as well)... but all the problems above are reason, why I cannot support it, and will rather welcome another, better proposal. If you will fix all the problems though, you have my support 😉 .

a. i could live with donations being added to budget fully and all other income (100😵 put behind congressional approval.

tax is tax. it doesn't matter if it is due to concession or returned from tw partner.

c. not a huge problem adding them together.

d. i added it because arguments were made in the previous debate the MoD org should always have money on there. 500k nlg is ludicrous though. that is basically the entire gov budget.

e. if gov wishes to spend part of their budget on certain programs money can be send to those orgs, regulating orgs in this way ensures government can't go outside of their budget due to uncontrolled large number of cc that are left on orgs after government terms.

f. it ensures all governments start with a clean slate.

g. with that reasoning it should go to 2k and 2million at the minimum. and like i've said before the 5 isn't set in stone. if we naturally grow the EF due to point 9 that would also be good.

h. don't agree.

b) In your wording (which you have taken from Finances Sheet, where the same terms are used), the "Concession" would include tax returned due to concessions.

d) 100k NLG is ludicrous, 500k is reasonable request. Please read once again my comment on it, as you seem to misunderstood it completely.

e) So why are those orgs not mentioned, but MoD org is? It makes proposal incosistent, and therefore by default bad.

f) It only adds unnecessary layer of bureaucracy.

g) Once again, you do not understand, how time consuming would filling of DNB be, if we used any of your suggested numbers. Millions do not grow on trees, as former Minister of Finances you should know that. And mind you, my approach has been used during the previous DNB incfrease (suggested by myself actually), and it turned out to work good. Your approach is the one illogical here.

Either way, seeing you are unwilling to take most of my feedback, I am afraid I will have to wait for another proposal to solve the issues. Which is a shame.

so? add a new row for it and split it. part of the money we receive is tax.

d. spending is still based on budget that gov has. your idea would make it possible for gov to overspend budget massively for multiple months.

e. did you read my previous post? i added MoD because of the previous debate.

f. it gives keykeeper 5 minutes of work. and ensures gov start with a clean slate.

g. i know millions don't grow on trees, changing the minimum from 200k to 1million was a good first step, however the last time the EF grew by a considerable amount was during my time as MoF.

we are debating aren't we? it's unlikely we will ever agree 100% on everything. that is just how life works.

Making a new row has no influence on your proposal - your proposal just needs to be better worded. If you are linking to the Finance Sheet in some parts of it, the links need to be visible and understandable. Else the word "Concession" can get twisted, as I mentioned above. And I would like to avoid twisting of the law, we enjoyed enough of that lately 😉 .

d) As I said, 100 000 NLG is not even close to one month's budget of MoD. If you read that part, of course...

e) And you will not add other ministries, because... (?) They are also relevant, we no longer have two ministries and one CP, as was the case of the past - all institutions are now fully operational, and most of them requires some sort of budget to function. It's no longer "empty the treasury and fill DNB", governments these days do much more with our money.

f) Governments cannot start on clean state, they always inherit, whatever the previous government left. Your partial emptying of org therefore makes no sense at all, it is only a waste of time, which could be better spent.

g) DNB didn't magically grew lately, because unlike your lack of management, new MoFs and new governments actually found a way, how to invest currency back into our citizens. You never bothered to do that - but sometimes, it is good to actually make expenses, and invest into players. Because, surprise surprise - it made our economy to grow more. Almost sounds like stashing all money in unused org was never a good economic option. But if you prefer bad economic options, who am I to judge..

And yes, we are debating, but since you disregarded vast majority of my feedback (which comes from position of Minister, who is knowledgeable about current monetary affairs 🙂 ), I am afraid we will not be able to debate much more, unless you implement the changes I reasonably explained above.

we can work on wording. but it will also require changes to the financial sheet.

d. so? just because the expenditure of the Ministry of defense currently is higher than 100k doesn't mean that ministry needs to start with 500k to spend every month. hypothetically next month the overall gov budget drops by 300k MoD now has more money than the entire gov budget allows. Ministries simply shouldn't have more money at their disposal than is allowed to be spend by the government.

once again i added the 100k to MoD due to comments in the previous debate. personally i'd be fine with them having the same amount on them as orgs in point 5 at the start of a term.

e. what is stopping gov from transferring the required funds (out of total gov budget) to those orgs?

f. in the past money was only sent to orgs if they needed the money for a specific reason, and the remaining money was transferred back to EZ. as it should be, gov should not have hundreds of thousands of CC (not accounted for in budget) to spend without oversight from congress.

g. There was more than enough budget for both the programs and a donation to the EF for many months now.

and many of the ministers that are being applauded for good work on programs were also in those governments back then, coasting by doing nothing. as mof you can't spend money if nobody is willing to do anything but the required minimum. so i did the only wise thing i could do as mof and increased our EF so we had reserves for defense in case of an invasion.


so just because you are the current minister of finance your opinion is the only one that counts? we disagree on things, that is a normal thing, some things we will never agree on.

Oh God, just reading first half of your comment , you again twisted everything I said. Stop putting words in my mouth, thank you!

0. "we can work on wording. but it will also require changes to the financial sheet."

Oh, changes in financial sheet, haven't had MoNC for a while making those 😛 .

1. "hypothetically next month the overall gov budget drops by 300k

... yes, and people will ask to post pornography, and we will have foreigners starting votes in our Congress, etc. etc.. Please stop with these imaginary scenarios. There is no reason for budget to drop so much without any prior signs. And there are none.

2. "once again i added the 100k to MoD due to comments in the previous debate. personally i'd be fine with them having the same amount on them as orgs in point 5 at the start of a term."

... that's the opposite of my feedback, and it makes the proposal even worse.

3. "gov should not have hundreds of thousands of CC (not accounted for in budget) to spend without oversight from congress."

... all spendings are recorded. Therefore Congress can oversight on all of the spendings - so where is the problem?

4. "as mof you can't spend money if nobody is willing to do anything but the required minimum. so i did the only wise thing i could do as mof and increased our EF"

... And what stopped you from doing something? Do you know, how many programs were created thanks to participation of MoFs after you? So why couldn't you suggest something as well? Do not blame others for something you are clearly guilty of too 😉 .

5. "so just because you are the current minister of finance your opinion is the only one that counts?"

... no, unlike you, I do not consider myself superior, but I can actually look at your opinions, and fix all the incorrect facts you used while making those opinions, because I have all the latest financial data at my disposal, and I simply understand the topic a bit more, as I concern myself with it on daily basis. That's just based on experience - if you were MoF now, our roles would be opposite in the debate. And... you have the data too, but it seems you neglected to look at them, before making the proposal, else I can't explain those weird numbers you use.

Either way, we are turning in circles now. I have gave you sugestions to make your proposal better, and I posted explanations on why those suggestions make your proposal better. If you choose to ignore it, or reverse it, do not count on my support. Which, I guess, you are totally fine with.

oke so I wrote something this morning on my phone as lost it. will try to re-write.

I would argue that all the money stashed away in the DNB is lost for an unforeseen period of time.
instead i would like to propose that we have an EF that consists of X money e.g. 2.5 million cc and 2,000 gold. (we add 500k to the current EF fund BUT this money is not stashed away in the DNB org.

I propose two options:

1. We leave 2,000 gold and 1 million cc in the DNB org which is NOT part of the monetary market project
the other 1,5 million cc will be distributed over the orgs that are part of the monetary market program. We have to establish an optimal amount of money for each MM org. e.g. 400k cc. If we have 400k cc in EACH MM org we can transfer the surplus to the DNB. Money on Ministerial org such as the MoD and Eco org should remain there and should be used by the ministers to work the MM themselves in a sense learning how to work with MM program using just one org. This would mean that when NoTie stops working the MM project we have plenty of people who know how to operate it and take his place. However for these orgs, the current account and the MoD org there should NOT be a seiling. However the government budget limits the amount of money transferred to these orgs by the government as they can't spend more.

2. Same idea as in option 1 BUT we optimize the entire MM program by distributing the EF over all orgs and working them at maximum efficiency. The emergency fund would become a number e.g. 2,000 gold and 2,5 million cc but will not be stashed away on a single org. Money makes money but you have to work with it to do so, sadly we don't have interest rates in this game.


Earnings of the MM market are to be recorded by the MM program operator (NoTie112) and the ministers who control their own org. we will work towards a goal of minimum 400k cc in each org. + the 2,5million and 2,000 gold. any money /profit that is a surplus to this amount can either be spent or is added to the EF in the form of being added to an MM org.

Example. we have 400k in all orgs, 2.5 million spread over 10 orgs and 2,000 gold in the DNB. profits from alst month are 300k cc. this money will be added to the government budget for next month. IF the government does not spent this 300k but only 100k leaving 200k this money will be added to the EF but will at the same time be used in the MM to generate more profits. At this point the government cannot freely spend it anymore but congressional approveal is required. the next month we earned 320k cc and this is added to the following months gov budget, all of it is spent. the EF still contains 2.7 million and 2000gold while all other orgs have 400k left to work the monetary market.

don't agree with either option.

if the mm needed more orgs we shouldn't have rented an org away.

also 400k cc is overkill for mm.

How would you know? You never posted a single MM offer while it was under your watch (or at least zero to none profit was made). On average you won't sell 400k indeed, but there are times when up to a million gets sold at one time - nothing that can be guaranteed but rationally more profitable than putting 5 million in an org that can't be used in any way and is only going to devaluate.

I actually think Shawty's ideas show some merit and good thinking. You can have both the ''Emergency Fund'' and having that money be invested in the no-risk Monetary Market. It'd be awesome if ALL orgs could be used on the MM for maximum profit, but I can see the risk attached to having all kind of people having access to that in Gov Orgs (or just not knowing how to deal with it, although its not rocket science). The only way that would remotely work is the MG having access to all orgs and working independently from who is Minister but that is of course less than ideal.

I do agree though there should be some ceiling, even on MoD.

Example of my own:

We inform you that 500000 NLG have been sold for 1000.000000 GOLD from the citizen account using the offer posted on the monetary market

Translates to more than 100k profit of cc by just ''using'' money in ONE offer. But yeah, let's force ourselves to stash away 5 million cc in a dusty, inaccessible and secretive org!

i only ever did one trial run after i made an inventory of what we had on the mm orgs. nothing got sold/bought. and it's not like i had access to those orgs for a long time.

having that kind of money on a org that is used by multiple people only invites problems. we don't want you to have to sent tickets to admins about that again do we 😛

and how often did a sale like that happen? a fluke sale is still a fluke sale.

once again 5 million isn't set in stone, however i will fight tooth and nail to prevent people accessing the EF for anything other than the intended purpose it has.

Not having done that is potentially a loss of a few million cc. But I don't blame you for that, as besides Trannsvaal and Weekstrom in the ''recent past'' no one ever bothered to do it long-term. But it shows how potent it can be in regards to our income. Such a sale indeed doesn't happen a lot, but even happening it only once a month makes a great difference for us - therefore it doesn't hurt to have it there at all times (which is the entire rational of the MM which involves a lot of ''luck'').

Having experienced that I indeed do not want multiple people having access to a large sum of money. I'm not a fan of having MM on Government accounts that are under control of all kind of people and changes every month too. The current system seems to work fine. More orgs is of course always appreciated, but we've already pushed that to the max and bring in considerable income (and we in eNL are blessed with LOTS of orgs anyway).

A problem I have with the continuously increasing of the Emergency Fund is that it seems reasonable now, but when we ever need to spend it we're back at zero.. Building that back up to 1 million is already crippling (especially with your proposed 50% of the budget), let alone 5 million. That's not only a problem with you but with others as well. A potential option is to have 'several degrees' of the Fund, so that for example the current 2 million is to be - never - used for expenditures while anything above that is more flexible (but still under Congress oversight of course).

I also differ on the 'intended purpose' because there seem to be none really, it's all vague. It's a stash of money that is sitting somewhere to be squandered when there is a war, I guess. And unlike f.e. the millions that are in MM - and can be transferred for emergencies as well as some far-away MoFs did) - it's not being utilized for making more money (without any risk of losing money). Also the actual functioning of it, is overrated. You need to be a master in intrigue to get it loose (I have no problem in doing that, as you well know, but others may) and it's basically a blanc cheque once achieved (because squabbling over the amount that can be used is not being done due to time pressure).

From what i read here we want odan wants 5 million cc collecting dust. Both odan and NoTie112 are against using gov orgs for the MM atleast with large sums of money. I can agree on this. The gov orgs and the DNB shall not be used in the MM program. NoTie opted for a ceiling on the MM orgs including the gov orgs excluding the DNB I guess.

I propose a ceiling of 400k in all orgs to make it simple. Maybe with the exception of the MoHA, MoFA and CP org where we can set a ceiling of 100k cc. I do believe we can use this 100k to train people on how to work the MM. So e.g. the MoFA will use let's say 75k cc on the MM and use the other 25k for some gov program.

If 400k is the ceiling in MM orgs all loney that exceeds it has to be used or be sent to the DNB. How about we send 50% to the DNB and add 50% to the budget for the next gov?

As for refilling the EF. I agree with NoTie and a system to refill should be in place.

Magbe there should be a CM vote for each 2 million cc mad available. If we have 5 million cc and we wanted to empty it it would require 3 votes. But votes can be started at the same time. That way congress has a say in how much of the EF is spent.

Refilling that budget that is spent can be in steps.
E.g. the first month 50% of the budget of gov budget (due to the war we should have a higher income than usual though the resource concession will end if WesternNL is wiped)
Month 2-5 40% of gov budget
Month 6-10 35% of gov budget
Or even better base the % on the level of the EF to reach 500k -50% between 500k and 1 million 40% of budget between 1 and 2.5 million 35% of gov budget.

Imho 2.5 million should be enough and we should focus on refilling the MM orgs (if we spent all money in the orgs). These orgs can help earn money and thus are of MORE value than the EF that is collecting dust.

"I propose a ceiling of 400k in all orgs to make it simple. Maybe with the exception of the MoHA, MoFA and CP org where we can set a ceiling of 100k cc. I do believe we can use this 100k to train people on how to work the MM. So e.g. the MoFA will use let's say 75k cc on the MM and use the other 25k for some gov program.

If 400k is the ceiling in MM orgs all loney that exceeds it has to be used or be sent to the DNB. "

.. that seems sensible.

" How about we send 50% to the DNB and add 50% to the budget for the next gov?"

...that sounds like rollovers, and I will personally oppose those.

"Magbe there should be a CM vote for each 2 million cc mad available."

... and that sounds complicated, though I understand the intention, and in general, the intention seems good.

"How about we send 50% to the DNB and add 50% to the budget for the next gov?"

How is this roll over?? It is NOT part of the budget the previous month. It is income just like tax income, I don't see why MM profits should not be added to the gov budget (partially).

As for the votes. It's not complicated. We just have multiple votes at the same time. One for the first 2 million one for the second two million and one for the remainder or if we have 2.5millcc in the EF maybe 1 vote per million cc so 1 million 1 million and 500m. CMs that way have a say in spending ALL our money or just part of it to defend ourselves.

debate closed