Join the new world

I don't see the true need for such a measure, although I don't see many disadvantages either. It's a fallacy to believe that ''people will invest more'' just because they pay a few cc (for most people) less a day, let alone that it will result in people scavenging a big amount of gold to actually invest and have more companies, nor does a 1% change result in profitable companies where they weren't in the past.

The planned ''Black Friday Fund'' seems more promising in that regard, but I haven't seen much on it recently - and it will need a lot of funds in addition to upholding our current welfare that is way more targetting (i.e. rewarding when rewards are due) than just slashing a big part of NL income. For reference, if it weren't for the not-so-sure Concessions and MM market income, it's not at all removing 1/8 of small Dutch income, but 1/3 (and good luck increasing it again). In the end we have to realize that we are a small nation, but with a well-organized community and Government that asks just a little bit more of its tycoons to stay prospering.

Where do you think those 120 000 cc will go? It's money invested in our citizens, just like you do on your ministry with (frankly, lately quite overpriced, especially since price for fulfilling DO is actually decreasing) MoD programs. By your logic, we should shut down all of them though, becuase they also "give people few cc per day", and therefore are by your logic useless.

And I believe President has said he will use the remainder of his budget to purchase Gold reserves, which can later be used for things like Black Friday (atleast I hope they will be utilized in that way, and not wasted on some nonsense by my future colleagues, else I have been collecting Gold for nothing). That is, of course, unless we follow plans like "return Congress tax", which were basically money spent with no gain to our country whatsoever. Funny I did not see you protesting against that, since it was investment with no advantage...

And the budget is clear, so do not try to claim we would be losing "big part" or "1/3 of our income" (that wpuld happen, if we completely deleted Work Tax to 0), and do not try to fearmonger people about the safety of our concessions without any proofs. We just managed to increase profits from Concession 5 times. 5 TIMES. Isn't it the ideal time to lower tax burden on our citizens, now that we can obtain money in other ways?

And the MM profit is mostly invested back into MM for months (= we do not even use those money for anything), so it's not like it is playing a big role in our budget. Of course, you know all of that, so I do not understand, why are you not mentioning it, or claiming outright the opposite... 🙁

I know you are not a producer, but a fighter. But you are also former MoF, so please stay on using the correct numbers during the debate.

To close it: when we did lowering of Work Tax last time, we were economically at much worse situation than we are today. We did not have high concessions, and our tax income was lower. And yet, we managed to do it, and it worked quite well. Hence why I personally do not see a single reason, why it should not work now 😉

Yes, the money will stay with the (rich) people, if taxes are removed. So if the gov has no idea what to do with its money, lowering taxes makes perfect sense. Definitely no real harm can be done.

However, if the government has good ideas for programs that distribute the wealth more evenly (for example by mainly focusing on newer players), this might be preferable.

I'm not at all immediately convinced that the rich people will invest in more companies (with very long payback times) if their profit margins increase. So ultimately, the result of this tax reduction might simply be a lower tax income...

There is only so much programs you can run in a month. We have like 6 of them now? That takes quite a lot of time to work on, if you want to keep them running for more than one term, and if you still want to do something extra to make each term more special with other things. And even now, we have programs, which are quite attractive (in my opinion), and yet nobody, or quite low amount of people, apply. Curiously, most of them focused on new players (build your company and TG - both of these quite useful for new player). True, things could probably get expanded there in different way, but given the retention of new players, I understand it is not a... task many would find energy to do.

Creating programs is good, but there is certain limit of oversaturation of them. And just increasing rewards in existing programs is not also an optimal way to go.

Oh yes, that 120k will one way or another return into citizens, I don't deny that. It will not be targetted though, and I'm not sure if one is better than the other (considering the inadequate tools eRepublik provide us to check that). One ''newb'' fighting a lot in Air, will for example profit more than that few -cc on his salary. I wouldn't say MoD is 'overpriced'. Especially on GB lot can still be improved, although I agree Flying is already quite royal relatively to the rest of the world. And as 'fighter' and MoD I of course prioritize fighters (which is arguably the one success formula in the game, besides diplomacy as small nation to snake ur way around).

You know my opinion on Congress Tax. I'm more against it because it pollutes our Laws and seems a relic of the past. Not paying that is not 'money lost' but an alleviation on previous Gold income, that is the same for everyone (regardless of how many factories you own, or how many medals you earn on the battlefield). I'm happy to hear about BF still being a thing, and I'm more than pleasured to work on that as well (hence the immense MM work that has been done in the last year).

In the end, and I kinda agree with Djirtsdew on that, it has the risk of just a 'tax reduction' without any actual effects. Not that we can know, because we can't check for productivity or inflation all that well. And that is fine in principle considering our current circumstances, but it is being sold under pretences that it will result in people investing, or only being 1/8 of our budget (whilst our budget is - very - flexible dependent on Gold/CC ratio and geopoltiics) and that may be as true as the 'fearmongering' I do.

Also, let's all be friends and realize I just like to ponder endlessly over any political issue like this (L).

TFD started with... 5k a week? Now we are at 50k - and despite general inflation, prices of food did not increase 10 times to justify the increase of payment for air kills. They are actually now lower than they were, when we paid 10 times less to the people. So frankly, yes, I see some of the spendings on MoD as overpriced based on the existing data, and I have voiced my concerns to various CPs on it in the recent past. In fact, if we ever needed to save some budget, MoD would be the first to ponder upon, and WT would come only second to that.

Either way, Congress Tax aside (that is not the topic, and so far, I have not seen a single one benefit from Congress Tax not existing to support such a move)... you, more than others, should realize, governments cannot run million programs. We already work a lot on maintaining, what we have. And sometimes, simple in-game solution can achieve much more - we can return Dutch people money with one simple click, instead of periodic table filling done each week, works better... we know those money go back to Dutch people, and we know they are distributed accordingly, so in the end, for us it is ... "less bureaucracy"... which is not a bad thing, Mr. PP of ReL, right 😉 ?

"only being 1/8 of our budget (whilst our budget is - very - flexible dependent on Gold/CC ratio and geopoltiics"... not really for a while, as I explained above. But if you have any information our concessions are going to end soon, please present them, because I believe both government and Congress would be interested in this new information.

All in all, the facts are clear - numbers have been presented, they are in the Finance Sheet too, and each person can judge for himself, whether or not we can afford to invest into our producers by lowering their tax burden. I know we can... in fact, we have never been in a better position to do so, not even the last time. And anyone claiming otherwise will have to present real numbers to convince me otherwise. Which so far, you did not achieve, NoTie 😉 .

Like Janty said, the comment made by NoTie states 1/3 of our budget. This only considers the Tax income not the budget the budget as tax income only accounts for +/- 40% of our budget. In other words we would lose 1/8 of our budget also mentionned above.

@djirtdew, the (rich) people are also our (active) people. By offering higher wages which is the main income of new players! we offer them a chance to build food companies (which are profitable especially when we lower work tax).

Another way to increase our income is by purchasing and selling mroe goods in eNL market. I know for sure that many people buy houses outside of eNL because 'they are cheaper there!'. When we allow producers to make the same margin they make now but sell the products for a lower price in the NL market people might not buy so much abroad anymore which also leads to more tax income.

As for risk... There is none, no risk at all! I simply want to see the tax reduced I believe we will not find any complications in terms of budgetting by future governments. IF I end up being wrong only one button has to be pushed to return the taxes back from 2% to 3%. However I do not think that will be necessary.

Flying started at 5k perhaps, but everyone including yourself knew all too well that that is not the standard we should compare current spendings too, because it was an incredibly low rewarding that didn't motivate too much. What we have now is the standard, is adequate for the efforts done and works. I have time and time again said Flying doesn't need to be increased further much for now. But suggesting it is overpriced, perhaps we need to cut, while at the same time proposing WT decrease is something I fervently am against for the well-being of our defence capabilities and activity.

This doesn't go for the Green Berets. Getting maybe 25 tanks for doing 1 billion is 'nothing', and any tank can tell you that. Let alone those that want to excel and strive for Legend ranks, which is the one thing that should be our main priority - or we will be overrun by any nation with one XX Legend. So in fact, we are not at all ''done'' improving ourselves and should not think in words like 'overpriced'. But, in general seems like a retaliation because I am not too convinced by the arguments being brought forward regarding increasing productivity. I don't believe in trickle-down in RL either 😛

Regarding Congress Tax and WT: one is not like the other. One is a relic from the past and was pushed on the game, while the other is an actual mechanic. Having 1, 2, 3 or 50% WT does not change anything in the level of 'bureaucracy'. More so than disliking bureaucracy, most of which is gone thanks to abandoning Forum and its meta-rules, I prioritize the thriving of the nation and have no problem being a bureaucrat if it involves in-game initiatives like the Flying Dutchman and Green Berets that are essential for the survival of our nation and general activity.

1/8 of our budget is as much true as 1/3 of our budget. For all we know Iran as part of Asteria is invaded tomorrow, or we are ourselves. I just pointed out that budget is in theory very flexible and can change immensely from time to time. Yes, it can be increased again, but then this entire discussion seems more like Government doesn't know what to do with money (while a lot can still be done) and not about increasing factors like productivity too much. So the 'true numbers' are just that, numbers, very interpretational. My conclusions are based on the same numbers in your sheet, after all 😛.

Seeing you do nto bother to read my replies too much, Notie, I will keep it simple.

- One aerial kill costs around 4,5 cc to do. We "subsidize" twice as that in TFD. That is overpaying, and no longer subsidizing. On the other hand, you complain you do not have enough funds for GB. True, one ground kill costs like 7 times more. But maybe you would have those money, if you did calculations and spent money in a smart way? Btw. I give you actual numbers, so you cannot claim it is some "propaganda, retalitation, attack", etc. Just facts. Maybe talk with CP about rebudgetting your programs, if this is his direct order for you to do things this way, but do not justify high WT , when you yourself have (and will continue to have even if decrease is done, btw.) the money available to help without it.

-- Not to blame on you though, "subsidizing Q1 houses" falls into the same category. The program is good incentive for people to start using them, but it is another kind of overpayment. Funny that you agree with me privately on this though, when it does not concern your ministry 😉

- Congress Tax, not a topic here, but I see no benefit for Congress by removing it. And I will rather find in-game ways of giving people money (like tax changes) than setting up more programs, which will have to be maintained. But as I said below to Weekstrom - if you have better incentive for producers, come forward, please! Because frankly, I have none at the moment.

- "1/8 of our budget is as much true as 1/3 of our budget." 1/8 = 1/3? Oh gosh no. Stop mixing numbers for the sake of fearmongering. And if Iran got invaded (once again, if you know about that going to happen soon), we will act accordingly. Because with this, we would not lose 120k cc, but 450 k cc, so we would have to do other changes to our budget too (starting with budget cuts on the biggest ministry, which, as you claim, is yours). You remind me odan, when he was justifying putting more money to DNB - similar hypothetical scenarios, which are painted as quite real or immediately incoming. (Well, I hope our enemies do not read your comments btw. 😛 ). And numbers are indeed interpretional... but the "true numbers", as you say - and those differ a bit from what I see in the doc myself 😉 .

(and just FYI, if we are invaded, WT would temporarily go to 1%, so we do not give our money to occupying force, and then it would be increased accordingly for some time to "recollect" the money back. I hope you as MoD are aware of this basic defense mechanism used by many nations across the world 😉 )

Eh, I might be the one who read most into your replies and reply to them 😃.

* No one is being overpaid. The entire rationale of Flying Dutchman is to motivate as well, and it works. I thought it was the one great achievement of our Governments over the last years. It has been 50k for literally half a year, now it's being brought up to somehow rationalize that I am the one that can not calculate and therefore cry about too few funds.

First of all, it's not solely me who decides on where money goes, in fact it's mostly the CP. Secondly, there is just a need for more money in MoD if people want to have the same success in ground warfare as the ones in Air. Anyone can attest for that, that is participating in that Program. But this seems to me to be irrelevant to the discussion at hand, as we established we have enough money and don't need to look at 'overpricing' or budget cuts anywhere but can actually expect increases.

* I don't see what the gotcha is on me agreeing with you on Q1 Houses supplied being abundant. It was not me who decided to scrap Q2 Houses (which made more sense to keep, whilst removing Q1) which leaves us with this. It's fundamentally different from 'overpaying' air kills, because using a House is common-sense and self-sufficient, you either do it or you do not. Not comparable to any fighting initiatives in which more is better, and fighting more than you can even more so to improve our relative position in the world. Hence why there is also things like big rewards for Air Ranks (which is not introduced by me, but by you) which is inherently 'overpaying' and has nothing to do with supplying/self-sufficiency. No one needs money for 'self-sufficiency' in air fighting, because its almost as free as it gets 😛

* 1/3 or 1/8 it does not matter. It says nothing on its own anyway, and it barely was the main point of my discussion to start with. And don't compare me to a very long ago predecessor that didn't bother to justify anything and was too lazy to do anything with the massive savings in DNB, because in no way this is comparable. I'm the one here that is forced to defend actual (MoD) expenditures and not savings going continuously to a slush fund without any running programs, after all, in which case I would expect WT to be 1% (yet didn't happen 😃).

* Cheap shot to bring up decreasing WT during occupation. You know as well as myself that I'm aware of such matters 😛

* So TL😉R, despite getting the biggest portion of the budget, you still claim you do not get enough tax money to distribute it towards people, who, in your opinion, need it. And when suggestions are made to help you in that regard, you shoot them down, no matter how logical they are. Do not forget, that outside of budget, you operate with thousand of tanks, and we are now building another commune for your Ministry - is this still not enough? You are even more greedy MoD than I was, and I was told I am greedy a lot. What did producers, get in the last couple of months? Nothing, in comparison with fighters. All active citizens, no matter whether they work, fight, or do other activity, should be profiting, not only few selected ones, who happened to be strong enough to make half a million damage. Try to see things from broader perspecitve outside your office, please.

* I am not "gotcha you", or what you are trying to suggest, I merely pinpoint down your incosistency in your opinions. I will just point out, that in the second paragraph, you claim people do not need to be paid for aerial kills ("because its almost as free as it gets"), while in the first one, you claim that 50k per week to support that is quite okay, and it should not be lowered. Just... be consistent with your opinions across the board, as otherwise it is impossible to debate with you, because you switch your opinions mid-sentence.

* " 1/3 or 1/8 it does not matter. It says nothing on its own anyway, and it barely was the main point of my discussion to start with."... says the former MoF. Sure, it does not matter, whether 120k cc is 1/3 or 1/8 of our budget, meaning by your logic, there is no difference between budget of 400k cc and 1 million. Good God. And your idea that reducing work tax equals to stashing money to DNB or will lead to cancellation of all programs, is another fearmongering -you know, that is not even true, so you only say that to scare people. The end of concessions (as you suggested we face pretty soon) would cause programs to end. Bad governments (or bad MoFs 😛 ) would cause programs to end. But not decrease of WT to 2%. Just like decrease to 3% did not cause programs to end as well.

(FYI, you know very well I am against lowering of WT to 1% this year... so why are you bringing that up, I do not know)

* Seeing what you are writing until know, I would not be surprised, if you criticized lowering of WT to 1% during occupation, because it would allow producers to live more happily, making fighters unhappy for some reason. All in all, when you do not see the difference between 1/3 and 1/8, I kinda need to assume the worst, don't you think 😛 ?

Of course, I happen to head the Ministry of Defense, for which it kinda is a given it eats up most of the budget. Not only because it's one of the most important ministries in the focus of the game of eRepublik, but also because it is one of the few fields where money can actually be targetted in big sums and continuously. Without f.e. Big Housing Program, for MoF it's harder to do so, let alone for Ministries like MoHA or MoFA that are not focussed on such (financial) issues. So it can hardly be my 'blame' that I want more money and use so much whilst this has been the practice since forever.

What suggestions do I shoot down? To decrease Flying Rewards? I don't feel like disappointing people and decreasing those rewards after been giving them for almost half a year and has seen great results in our viability in the air. And even if I did so; anything saved from that is nowhere enough to make GB have the same desired effect. And this is not about greed, or giving some elitists money whilst 'producers are being forgotten': Flying gets around 15 participants and GB around 10 (obv some in both Programs), which consists of a relatively large part of our society, and many of those are 'producers' too (i.e. Weekstrom, europecrisseswar, 911mic etc). There is no clear difference between fighters or producers, as we both established that both sides of that game need each other (i.e. Weekstrom's stated example of needing lots of production for his fighting).

In fact, I'd argue that more people profit from expenditures on MoD, than from decrease in WT - which almost inherently favours old/rich/visa players with lots of production (not that they don't deserve anything, mind you!) - see e.g. comments by Fosite and eRepTrader about how for them it doesn't matter. It's easier for someone to rake in cash by fighting a lot in air, than to somehow establish a thriving production empire (which guys owning those would have done regardless of 1% or 3% WT, although I don't deny a lower rate would perhaps speed it up). But it's not black or white, we can work on all fronts to help our people. Because in the end, lower WT will return cash (inequally) to people, which is what this is about and is a lot easier to sell than supposed economic benefits.

I'm not inconsistent I was explaining that MoD expenditure, especially in Air, has nothing to do with new-found goal of 'self-sufficiency'. People can earn a nice buck on that and that should be the way, has been the way (hence your introduced Air Rank Rewards) and continues to be the way to improve our relative fighting situation AND economic situation. Which is why I absolutely defend 50k rewards on Flying. Neither am I inconsistent on the '1/3' thing. I was pointing out that it's just this month 1/8th of the budget, probably for next month(s) too but that it's not anything definite due to all the factors that make up our (complicated) budget. I continuously state we have enough money as it stands now. Anyone can look it up for themselves, so if you believe I fearmonger people you underestimate our citizens.

I was stating my opinion on the tenure of Odan, that you brought up, and somehow those statements are turned into me wanting to have more money in DNB, or expecting that to happen, or that I expect Programs to end. It takes some gymnastics to read it that way. Let's keep such references out then, if it causes confusion. Just like all the personal attacks, like I'm this horrible MoF and don't understand matters, that I'm this horrible MoD that can't calculate and squander money personally (and not as part of this Government together with you), that my opinions are deceptive lies to serve some ulterior goal (over a very dry and boring discussion to most) and so on. I respect you and I think you respect me too, so there's no need for that in a civil discussion.

Oh, you heavily underestimate my potential MoF abilities to find ways of spending money - but for now, I prefer more on simple in-game reductions - once we run out of options on that area, I can happily show you, that MoF can spend money just as well as you do now on your ministry 😉 .

"What suggestions do I shoot down? To decrease Flying Rewards? " ... well given the current budget and program circumstances, I believe program can be remodeled to work better, all while making it possible for bigger spendings in GB (which will happen anyway with another commune incoming). Ideally, both programms would have the similar spendings, so people could easily pursue either one of them according to their needs, without feeling the necesitty to jump on the bandwagon of the more profitable program.

"In fact, I'd argue that more people profit from expenditures on MoD, than from decrease in WT "... you think we have less than 15 taxpayers? Seems a bit wrong to me 😉 .

"see e.g. comments by Fosite and eRepTrader about how for them it doesn't matter"... well, they do not benefit from your programs as well, as far as I know, so it's easy to assume for them it does not matter at all.

". People can earn a nice buck on that and that should be the way, has been the way (hence your introduced Air Rank Rewards)"... those were introduced as some sort of celebration of certain achievement, all while keeping track of people's ranks. The original idea of the program was indeed to make aerial kills worthwhile, as it is harder to obtain medals and TP medal income from fighting in the air. The fact you changed the goal of the program to "give people a lot of money" does not change the original idea I had in mind, when maintaining this program during his start 🙂

"Neither am I inconsistent on the '1/3' thing. I was pointing out that it's just this month 1/8th of the budget, probably for next month(s) too but that it's not anything definite due to all the factors that make up our (complicated) budget."... this reminds me of odan scenario of "Let's not change referendum rules, because I talked with admins, and they will change the game soon to make your proposal obsolete." Same logic. And I stated numerous times, that any changes to budget and taxes are reversible, and governments are and will be ready to act, if the budget suddenly starts to decrease a lot. Or do you think any change we do now is permanent?

" I continuously state we have enough money as it stands now. Anyone can look it up for themselves"... not many people do that, trust me.

" or that I expect Programs to end"... scrolling above, there would be examples of you hinting at it, but whatever. You have your way of debating by painting black scenarios to prove your point, and I have my way of debating of trying to dispel any of these scenarios I see written by person I otherwise consider to be smart and reasonable. Either way, as long as you will claim things like "1/3 = 1/8", you can't expect me to not be angry at you, because I know you are better than that...

Isnt our President in favor of removing the Congress Tax instead of just return it? At last, thats what he told me. Is it possible to do both?

If you (or CP) want to start a debate on that, let us know. So far we only got this one.

I tried in the past and maybe I will do later. For now Ill leave this for Congress.

@ElGorro: It is hard for congress to make such a decision, as they'd obviously be filling their own pockets... It's better if the CP is the one proposing it, but even then CMs should be seriously considering voting neutral in the matter (to avoid a conflict of interest). So either the CP is going to make the difference, or some CMs vote against.

Make our laws Beautiful and Simple again! ©

So all taxes to 1% to make the tax laws more simple? Sounds beautiful, but bit unwise 😉

Like you (insinuated by your previous remarkts about the topic) I believe that IF we collect congress tax it should be for a purpose (e.g. Black Friday Fund). If this is not the case, I don't see why people who actively play this game should not receive what they deserve.

However. If they click a button that says run for congress and do not contribute they might not deserve the reward for being a member of congress. In this case I would opt for a payment of congress tax as perscribed in the law. If however the member of congress is active he will be refunded. In otherwords, we reward activity in our community.

Not collecting congressional tax is also fine with me based on the assumption that those who become a member of congress contribute to the community.

Anyway this if off-topic so I will not comment on this again and urge others not to as well.

Only a short remark, not having read reactions and I don’t intend to either while on holiday;
I do nit see the need to lower tax. What we need most is soldiers developing themselves so invest in that while we can. And if you can’t spend it all now put it in some kind of fund for future use for developing soldiers.
People who work much as manager will most of the time not need it anyway...

We need both soldiers and producers, one cannot live without the other. Classic mistake of someone with no factories...

Well, apart from the fact I do have factories I work in to be self providing, that could be a mistake made. However I’d say it’s a classic mistake from someone focussing on production lowering taxes is the way to boost income. There are much better and more rewarding ways. Besides I stil pay way more taxes to the country my factories are located. Roughly 3/5th of the taxation goes there so please don’t exaggerate the inpact of our own taxes.

I do not exaggerate, however you cannot outright neglect impact of our taxes on producers (and employers), and opposite, the importance of producers on the well-being of our country. Fighters like you often forget that there are also other people, who deserve attention and help, and that there are also other modules besides military one. I always say to people like you: "If you think military is the only module worth spending, try to fight without any food or weapons for the rest of your life." So far, nobody accepted that challenge... I wonder why... 😉

And to the "better rewarding system"... if you have any other solution, how to help producers WITHOUT adding too much bureaucracy (and even better - you are willing to put your energy and effort to prepare and then maintain one for the next months) - go ahead and propose it! I am sure the government will happily offer 120k cc for better and more rewarding program to help producers (not fighters, but producers), and I am sure you have such a solution existing, otherwise you would not be talking about it... right 😉 ? So please, do let us know!

This is the goal of lowering work tax.

a. People earning more money (higher salary by Dutch employers)
b. Tax income recovering by volume of product sales and work as manager in an increased amount of companies.
(Example, employees build raw material companies and sell to their employer at international prices (both will make profit win-win and salary can still go up)

c. The average salaries going up because of lower Work as a manager cost.
d. When the average salaries increase our tax income increases
(Average salary is important because it is used to calculate taxes! with a higher average salary the income from work tax will also increase eventhough the tax itself is lower)

e. Our company owners will be able to get more employees due to higher salary offers.
(our jobs offers will become more competitative compared to the international market)


I've read about the importance of warfare. People want to invest in fighters. Here is some news so do I !!
This particular law will however benefit everyone that works in his own companies = 90% of the players

Investing 120k cc in ground figthers benefits maybe 10 players if the goal is for people to become Legends (rank).

I want to invest in our active soldiers however the truth is simple and very harsh.
1. Without packs you will never reach those high legend ranks
2. In order to sustain packs without spending money you need to be very active (I can only think of about 5 players who would be able to manage this but I can be wrong)
3. Out of those 5 players, 4 of them would benefit more from a high air rank and focusing on sky hero medals because they are not strong enough! Legend 20 with 180k strength while others have 260k will be amazing and you will be able to do a lot of damage but against some other tank you will lose unless you spend more.


My budget this term was +/- 1 million cc. Lowering tax income by 100k will leave the government with 900k cc. This is more than enough to cover the projects we run. At the same time this tax reduction will reach 90% of the population instead of 10%.

Some people are talking about the rich people will pay less tax at the same time we want to give the rich people (those who have packs and strong accounts) more money. Basically this law will allow the rich people to spend less on taxes just like everyone else so they already benefit.

For every TP medal e.g. Weekstrom wins (he wins a lot of them every day, he will now receive 970 cc In the tax is lowered this will be 980 cc. if he wins 8 of them every day that's 800 cc. he does that every day of the month. That is 24,000 cc!! We can give him 24k in the green beret program of lower work tax same thing!

Sorry my last example is off (2400cc every month which is much less impressive) but adding all the BH gold, the taxes he doesn't pay when working in his weapon companies etc. it will be +/- 7k cc every month (which is 70% than the current weekly cc he wins in the green beret program which will NOT be reduced) so that is one week of extra income he didn't have before.

The maximum gross salary offering in NL is currently 100cc lower than in Iran (for example). The gross salary is lower because of a 3% work tax? And if we decrease work tax by 1% salaries should go up? A decrease in taxes does not lead to a higher nominal salary (what is used for the average salary calculation) in most economic theory, so, I do not understand why you believe these dynamics will happen, maybe you could elaborate more on it?

Also, I am not tracking the numbers, but aren't salaries going down recently? Does anyone have the data on that?

Global salaries are going down yes.
When you make more profit due to cheaper WaM and the the purchase of cheaper products of the eNL market you can pay a higher salary. I'm sure you undersgand that.

What happens when you offer higher wages? Let's say 100cc more? We will come close to top wages in the world and more people would be able to work for us. Upscaling our production which is what I'm trying to do. Players benefit and when production increases sales increase, and investments are made leading to a higher tax income.

Do you employ someone? When foreign and Dutch player put the same salary of 1 500 cc on one market, any reasonable employee will take the Iranian offer, because he will only lose 1% of his income due to tax, instead of losing 3% with offer from Dutch citizen. And that's the issue at hand in terms of competitivness of our vs. world employers. We simply cannot match their salary offers without tanking the profitability of having an employee, or without underpaying the employee. That's why even on Dutch job market, foreigners have been taking away our citizens as employees - because they could afford to pay them more due to lower taxes.

And Dutch average salaries thus far went down by impressive 10 cc in the last three weeks. As always, I recommend to check Finance Sheet first, before asking for data, because in 90% of cases, the data you want to know are tracked by your Minister of Finances already 😉 .

If they both were offering the same salary that would be true. But to start with, they are not offering the same salary. They are almost never doing it.

With same tax as in other countries, they would have no justifiable reason NOT to do that anymore 😉 .

I would suggest that eNetherlands conducts a census, we apparently have only have 147 active members.
Do this with articles active spam in MU en Dutch feeds, and ofcourse try to approach trough PM, if it sounds like alot of work than try and get the core members that are left to help out after all it doesn't matter under which government this happens as long as the information and numbers can be gathered it should make future governments work alot easier as well.


Lower work tax is just a few cc a day more for me, up it and few more cc for eNL from me either way i wouldn't notice it any time soon, and unlikely to care either way.
I think having a check with the "active players" since there are "only" 147 might give some very useful info and help to make decisions moving forward cause the main arguments made seem to be that lowering it will just benefit the few already rich player's vs the more employee's is more tax so helps everyone.
Personally i think there are alot of players similar to me with companies no staff and just pretty inactive, lower it will do nothing for noone we dont care, up it slightly and the same thing we do not care but tax income will go up some.
But than again i do not know how many companies are owned but actual active players, and could just be that lowering taxes is beneficial.


Either way i think the game is very much dying, when i went inactive there where over 450 active dutch players, and sure in hell over 50k world wide. Maybe instead of playing the game as is done, change it up go nuts and go out with a bang, cause we all know devs don't listen and with so few players left this game is very much death they are just milking out the last few $$$ they can. But hey thats my 2 cents.

So you are saying we should increase the work tax?

That would make it even harder for the "active players" to compete with internayiobal salaries. Yes the government would have more money and the "active players" are most likely to collect this money through government programs but this would lead to creating an eNL where everything is designed to work for 40 players. The active citizen count is not a correct count imho. If we have more than 70 active citizens I'd like to know their names 🙂

No, im not saying to up or lower it, better to check with the remaining "active" players what they have in sense of factories and employees. As you said you don't even think this is 70 people, that isnt alot of information to collect.

I do not think either way will make much of a difference. I think if game keeps getting played as is done than in 2 years from now the active players might be down to maybe 30 or 40 players left.

But again i never been that deep into the politics so really i have little to no clue how it all works. But im starting to think that having this much argueing about something that will have very little effect on majority of the remaining active palyers so really this will only effect a handfull of people. So get information find out who this people are and what they preffer cause really only the handfull of active people shuld be considert at this point.

I would still recommand for eNL to change the way you guys play this game cause this rate eNL will slowlly die out, unless something drastically changes this game is done for.

Here is my info 2 weapon factories 1 food factory and 84 raw production, 0 employee's 1% up or down doesn't effect me one bit.

You can scale up production with some employees without having to buy raw materials. Try getting those employees at a competitive salary. The tax reduction give you the chance to offer higher salaries. We are all fine with self sustainable production while we can produce much more without extra costs (not having to buy new companies). Why don't we strive to grow? If we grow as players the country grows with us.

It is true that for most people the effect would be negligible. For some it would be big, though, depending on your productivity. I personally think in the end in the grand scheme of things, the economic side effects (i.e. expecting large things in salaries, competition, or additional production) are not that large, especially with just a 1% decrease to 2%. If we treat it more like an issue of Government being in a good financial situation (NOW) with enough room to decrease tax, it becomes more palpable and is more worthy of consideration.

Ok let me reframe, we have plenty money! As I stated in mt comment above. Yes hurayyy now we need to spend money, we have room for a tax reduction but why would we do this?? Just to spend money? If that was they case you would consider? C'mon. I present you the concequences of lowering tax and the ideal outcome. But you are not interested at all. You will just consider if we have enough. Money. Well the answer is yes. We have enough money. Now you can consider how you will vote.

Oh, I am interested. Hence my lengthy replies. You present consequences that will make many people doubt its effectiveness, hence replies of people saying ''oh its just a few cc for me, I gladly keep paying that to help eNL's income'' and entire economic theses, instead of facilitating the realization that they have ''done their part'' in helping NL rebuild financially already. Any money is still appreciated (we're far from ''done'' rebuilding eNLs apparatus) we're after all still a relatively weak and small nation, but it's not as dire a situation as many people still think we are in hence such attitudes we commonly see.

Just gonna stand in awe before the walls o text 😮

o/

Everyone is a hidden economic expert in this nation 😛 .

I don't see the need to lower the tax. Will hardly make a difference for me working at my employer. I make like 1400 or 1415 profit per times working if you look at current offerings. I happily pay that 15cc tax as extra to support activation of others.

It only affects the work tax you pay if you work for an eNL employer. So potentially it could help eNL employers to attract more employees. The far bigger impact on most of our citizens is through the work tax and medals.

True Patriot medals don't award 1000 NLG, but part of this sum is taxed at the same level as the work tax.

And working as a manager in your own companies gives both eNL and your country of residence (if you have a residence) taxes based on the work tax and the average salary in these countries.

What djitsdew said. Also if you can miss 15cc a day you might eant to invest in companies such as house companies that do not require you to work as a manager and hire some employees.

Our xountry will benefit much more from 1 house sold on the market than from you working for someone. Plus by offering a job someone else will pay work tax as well hihi

just another idea by a gov that has has no eye for the future.

That's very debatable at best. Gov is for a long time now activacating players. When you were CP or Mod all you did was safe cash with no plans. And if you stated there were plans nothing ever happened...

@#$% autocorrection. Activating players and when you were MoF. But MoD applies as well...

I understand you prefer the future consisting of doing nothing, but that is thankfully a minority view in here 😉

The government is actually working for almost a year now to help people, and make their future easier by allowing them (and not some unused org) to obtain money for their development. I understand such a concept is alien to you, but that's how the game works for quite some time. If you want to have strong playerbase in economy, fighting, politics, jorunalism ,etc. , and actually make your country competitive with other active countries, you need to invest into players, and not take their money away to stash them in some org, where they will inherently lose value because of inflation.

Sure, we could sit and do nothing like you, forcing active people to leave and die, and inactive drones to thrive... but why would be do that, if any other option is better 😉 ?

Thanks for your opinion. I understand you want to increase the EF rather than invest in our citizens by creating a better economic infrastructure. As for NO eye for the future. All my left over budhet this term will be used to purchase gold in order to sustain not only certain programs such as the TG upgrades and building stuff but also to ensure that our treasury stays filled.

I believe however that we should invest to make/earn more. Not saying that we reduction of of work tax is one that in the short term will earnbus more money but in the long term i can see our rich people build a business empire only possible to sustain due to a low work tax.
That's why I also rather see money that is part of the EF used in the MM program. This program can at times earn use millions of cc. If we don't invest our money interest will be zero.