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I adressed the topic of the in game taxes several times in congress, sadly(my opinion) many players didn't want them changed at the time.. i'm willing to discuss the topic again as time changes people and the game 🙂

With the consession deals proving a stable 60k income we might want to check the twxes again as our tax income isn't the only source of income anymore. Attracting people to join eNL by offering a favourable economic environment is an interesting idea.

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I forgot that bribe exists, and accepted the money automatically!

Says something about me for sure 😂 .

Either way - as someone with spreadsheets and such, I am always willing to meddle in taxes a bit to "test things out". And given the state of the market (the prices basically doubled in comparison with the last time taxes were changed here), we might think about amendments.

It's a good thing to start a debate on this topic. What I'd like to know is the share that taxes have in the monthly budget of our government. Does anyone have numbers related to that?

Easy calculation using information in the eNL finance sheet.

Maybe when a debate regarding the topic is opened in congress we can use such data to find the best combination of taxes.

Wasn't there like some sort of MoF article with some pie about "what our income is"? Maybe I am imagining things, let me see... 😃

Better open a debate topic in Congress. 😉

I would rather make a specific Congress proposal later based on people's opinion gathered beforehand. Not everyone can make it to the debate in Congress sections, as we both know 🙂 .

Besides, I give MoF some time to gather some economic data to give us his advice... if he wants, of course 😛 .

So, when can we expect a proper proposal?

If it were to result in a massive influx of foreign producers and an increase of domestic production and sales I'd be the first to slash it down to 1% - but I doubt it will make that much of a difference. eNL is after all a country that is not attractive to produce in no matter what due to a lack of resources.

''Work Tax'' includes WAM + ordinary salaries, but Combat Orders and (cc) Medals as well. VAT and Import Tax are negligible in comparison to the income from Work Tax (which contributes around 80-90% of our income, with Concession Fee excluded).

That doesn't mean I'd oppose a decrease of the tax, but it will slash the income of the state considerably. Does it weigh up to the benefits?

Added to that, many big producers are located abroad and don't even contribute to our state income that much (which means those who stay in the eNL are 'punished' for that). I'd rather see them returning, but I doubt that even a 1% rate will entice them to do so (because Iran etc have 1% and do have the bonuses). Well, individual benefits > communal benefits of the country these days 😃

Unattractive, and taxed as hell as well, in case anyone is foolish enough to exist here (or sell here food 😂 ). I always believed in lower Work Tax (again, not 1%, 1% is impossible for income purposes, but 3% might work 😇 ) and appropriate VAT tax to it (with Import changing based on how empty the market is at the moment). I mean - now, we have 4% VAT on Food, and 1% VAT on Weapons. Why this unequality, I ask? It makes it cheaper to just go and sell Food abroad, where even with Import people might lose less money, leaving our market empty.

Besides:

"We have major surpluses every month"... by Tonie112 » Thu 27 Sep 2018, 23:00

...said in a debate, where you support the decrease of Congress tax, meaning the loss of around 20 000 currency per month.

Again, I am not principally against decreasing it to 3% or 2% 😛. Just as I was not principally against the abolishment of Congress Tax (because I find it to be a bureaucratic mess and inherently strange way of taxing, but it does equal a loss to our puny income).

I'm all in favour of radically switching up the tax rates (like you suggest with VAT), but would like if it serves a larger purpose. Let's go on a #NetherlandsFirst campaign and make eNL attractive for the patriots and sympathetic foreigners to our cause - who now aid Iran/Poland or in some cases enemies like the US. 😉

"In principle"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhZRDoGZg00

Either way - I hate the way MoF docs are created, showing "total budget" = "total spent", while in fact the actual definition of "spent" actually means "transferred to another org" in majority.

Find a way to invest those tax money into our active citizens and help them to grow (and bring more taxes for the future), or relieve the pressure out of all our citizens (active or not) by changing taxes a bit!

WT 3%, VAT Food 3%, VAT Weapons 2%, let's do this 😃 !

"but I doubt it will make that much of a difference", maar maar, ons vestigingsklimaat dan 😛

our WaM tax is 45-65% of our daily taxes.
if we include the total workers tax we get 60-90% of our daily taxes.

yeah great idea to lower that.....

April 2018

Total income: 122 758
Total expenditure: 20 000 (MPPs)

March 2018

Total income: 84 624
Total expenditure: 20 000 (MPPs)

February 2018

Total income: 102644
Total expenditure: 0 (only transfers from one org to another, which are no expenditure)

January 2018

Total income: 90 532
Total expenditure: 30 000 (MPP)

----

etc.

----

There is a pattern here. And even though MoF docs cleverly says "all income is spent", in 60-90% cases, "total spent" = "total moved from org to org and not spent at all".

Draining citizens for no reason is not my cup of coffee. Sure, let's have enormous taxes, but let's invest them into citizens, and not "spent" them on moving from org to org.

that is the past. look at the present. ignore the concession. and this month with lowered tax income would probably break even.

now if you want to increase the air program or add something else well you can't since we are out of money....

and the moving from org to org was spending. either investing into our EF or into supplies for mod etc.

Well, the present is currently in a state, when soon, vote to reduce state income by 20 000 currency per month will be started, and people seem to not mind that. And I would rather prefer the in-game alternative for this, since I believe it can have bigger positive effect 🙂 .

Besides, I can guarantee as MoF those supplies exist, and are not being spent (atleast by me 😃 ) .

*MoD...

(wanted to write MoFA/MoD, and failed to do it 😃 )

just because a vote will be started doesn't mean it will pass.

secondly that number is more in the range of 30k normally.

Meaning making my tax changes wold be less drastic for income than removing Congress tax!

By law, refilling our Emergency Fund is spending, to the extent that govs even have no choice in the matter to spend it elsewhere...


I think a discussion of the needed contents of the EF is also in order. Prices (in CC) have risen dramatically over the past months, to the extent that our emergency fund may be emptied too quickly in the case of an actual emergency.

Is storing a certain amount of Q7, a certain amount of gold, and a certain amount of CC not a safer option. And what should these amounts be to be able to protect ourselves properly?


In any case, before we had the rental deal with Iran, we needed the work tax at that level. And I don't feel it is a major dealbreaker even now. Thanks to the rental deal our government was able to initiate new programs, and I'd like to keep them available even if we decide we're not prepared for an emergency...

So, first we should figure out if we're ready for an emergency, if not we'll need those taxes to further supplement our EF. If we are, we can indeed lower them a bit, until the need for more income arises.

a) The Emergency Fund is not refilled - refilling can happen, when the Fund gets emptied first. It's like if you would be refilling the glass of wine without actually emptying it... soon, the refilling would turn into over-flowing. It might be "refilled", based on some legal definition you people have, but it is not refilled based on the real meaning of that word 🙂 .

b) I agree that the current legal size of the Emergency Fund (1k Gold and 200.000 NLG) is a laughably low number, and given the fact in terms of currency we are around 8 times above the limit, and in terms of gold we are above as well, I welcome the initiative of DemNL Lawbook proposal to increase the limit as well. I have seen a few wars, and the current limit you have could be spent in one battle (or going wild enough even in one Air round)

c) You talk about increasing prices - but salaries increased too. And as all economic experts know, income from Work Tax is connected to the size of average salary. And in countries with big Work Tax, this effect can be quite visible. Just as is the case of eNetherlands. Looking at the raw data from MoF sheets, you can see that 4% WT 200 days ago and 4% WT shortly before concession started were different in terms of actual income from that tax, simply because salaries grew.

I dont see why we should lower them. 4% looks fair and no one is in the NL to be a business tycoon. Lowering them would only mean getting less money and no new people.

If it looks fair, why majority of other countries pick lesser Work taxes, even though their situation with bonuses it similar to ours 🙂 ?

As was said above, Work Tax also influences other things, like COs and medals. People barely fight for medals here (besides Weekstrom), and when they do, we take more money than other countries would do from them. So... why not give them a little breather, and go one percent below 😉 ?

And the thing about VAT tax (having food high and weapons not) makes no sense to me, in a situation when both markets are in a similar shape (e.g. in a bad shape, as in all other small countries). I am selling my food here, but if I sold it in Cuba or Czech Republic, where I have licenses, I would have bigger profit, because I would have lesser tax there (even with Import included). But why the Q7 tank magnates with foreign holdings do not have to pay the same VAT for their production sold here? It's not like Q7's are less profitable or less bought compared to food factories...

The main issues is not the taxes (For a player 4 or 3% hardly will make a difference while it is a large portion of our income AFAIK.
The real problem is gov's not spending it on matters beneficial to the players active in game. Same goes for the congress tax some former MoF introduced to get gold to be able to buy state comps or, later on, give subsidy to players to increase their training facilities.
And given the fact I can make a profit (albeit barely) with my comps the state comps should be profitable as well. Especially given the fact we only need workers to work the weapons factories and have the company owners work the raw comps that we bought in the past. With current weapons prices I reckon a lot of soldiers are willing to work for 15 Q7's!

Btw, there is still a gov program for upgrading training grounds if I'm right. Just no one uses it because it's not well known anymore.

@Spir Tus

I was told there is one, hidden somewhere so deep, it took me month to find it.

With focus on aerial battles though, I see little value of its existence.

@Weekstrom

a) Well, 1% can make quite a difference, especially given the fact how the manager work is actually calculated (= it is based on average salary too, and that thing has been growing quite a lot, so 4% WT today and 4% WT a year ago are two totally different situations.) I remember in Cuba how the average salary grew by 100 cc in two months, and without any changes in taxes or prices, all my raw companies went deeply unprofitable, just because people paid bigger salaries. And I had spreadsheets for that, so it was not subjective feeling of mine, but actual observation based on real data 😃 .

b) The part about state companies I like - it would help us to solve a lot of problems, except, with no -45% discounts on Company upgrades, it is quite a difficult decision to build a new one. Maybe Day 4,000 will bring something (?) (pretty please, I am saving all my gold and money for it 😶 )