Decisiveness or democracy?
Day 661, 11:10
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Published in Netherlands 
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by
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by ArtemIvanov
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Dear citizens of the eUNL.
The government is selected by the citizens of our country. The citizens gave them confidence for the new period. After they formed a coalition they maked a program and all partys agreed with it. In the program there was already announced that the name would change.
Nobody was complaining about that on that time.
But when the referendum started for names, the discussion is flared. Thats fine, but we think the government lost their decisiveness with the new referendum about the yes/no name change.
If they government wants a union they must choose a new name. A name with no dutch, and no belgium in it(except BeNeLux). A totally new name that dont refer to the 'old' country names.
The government have to do that. They are elected! They must have the decisiveness!
Its fine to have a referendum where the citizens can put a new name. But not about changing it. The government wants to do that, so they have to do that.
And yes, of course there will be people that complain about a new name. But now you have that to. We now have a great coalition with the biggest party's of the eUNL. Its now time to change, and not to go back what the citizens think.
Its to late to say, 'we stop the referendum'. But right know the 'no' voters are winning (closely
), and the government is defeated.
We wish the government good luck with trying the make this country a union. But when they give it all away, it will become very, very hard.
'Thoughts from eUNL'
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Dear citizens of the eUNL.
The government is selected by the citizens of our country. The citizens gave them confidence for the new period. After they formed a coalition they maked a program and all partys agreed with it. In the program there was already announced that the name would change.
Nobody was complaining about that on that time.
But when the referendum started for names, the discussion is flared. Thats fine, but we think the government lost their decisiveness with the new referendum about the yes/no name change.
If they government wants a union they must choose a new name. A name with no dutch, and no belgium in it(except BeNeLux). A totally new name that dont refer to the 'old' country names.
The government have to do that. They are elected! They must have the decisiveness!
Its fine to have a referendum where the citizens can put a new name. But not about changing it. The government wants to do that, so they have to do that.
And yes, of course there will be people that complain about a new name. But now you have that to. We now have a great coalition with the biggest party's of the eUNL. Its now time to change, and not to go back what the citizens think.
Its to late to say, 'we stop the referendum'. But right know the 'no' voters are winning (closely
), and the government is defeated.
We wish the government good luck with trying the make this country a union. But when they give it all away, it will become very, very hard.
'Thoughts from eUNL'
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Comments
totaly agree voted
I agree with you but programs of a government change as things in the country change.
Nice writing~! I agree
is it possible to change the name of a country and build a whole new one?! i doubt it!
The government can introduce ideas but when the decision affects a lot of citizens then they can't ignore the citizens. A referendum is good in these cases. I support the government, but don't want to be at a point that the government can solely choose everything without consulting the citizens.
@kixtart, the government is chosen by the citizens. They give the responsibility to lead this country to the government. The government = majority(this coalition). And they arent ignore the citizens. They listen, but now we need decisiveness instead of debate. Now is the time! If we dont change now, it never will happen.
Well, actually: even if a government has a proposal in their program this doesn't mean they can then just implement it as soon as they come into power (look at Obama's struggle to get his healthcare proposal accepted).
So it may have been wise to first run it through congress or put up the referendum before the 'suggest a new name' discussion. But would it have stopped the discussion currently raging? No-one knows.
ArtemIvanov, the same conversation was about the Q5 in Brussels some time ago. There was a plan about a Q5 hospital in the program of the government, but such important decisions are not for them to make. Normally it is up to the congress and since it is very important a choice for the citizens also. The ministers don't have absolute power in this democracy.
@kixtart: well one thing I must say: the hospital Q5 was actually voted on through congress.
But: this name change wasn't.
It was decided by the citizens first and i'm not talking about the one in Wallonia.
Plan to build a new hospital was in the last government. Than it made a referendum (much complained upon by GLD), than it was in the congress. That was Q5 for Wallonia.
The name change can be put in congress too, even if there is no 60% on our forum in favour. That is democratic. Most new citizens are not on the forum, but gave their vote for the congress. Most of the new citizens will be pleased with a name change.
Most of the current citizens are not.
I Deed The Congres represent the voice of the citizins and i think the last election said enough . Most citizins want a new name . Even if the poll on forum say no . If the congress said yes to it and voted yes for the name change . Needs to happen our the congress will lose most faith . That is my opinion . But then again i'm only 1 citizin .
@cocoamok: GLD complaining? Sorry, but no. Making a different proposal for the hospital in Wallonia (GLD proposed a moving plan) is not the same as complaining.
@cocoamok: it would be a weak sign if government gets overruled by its citizens in a referendum, to then just put it through congress (where the government currently holds a nice majority) to push their wish through.
@Kixtart: sorry for the confusion I thought you were referring to the last hospital
@mr Put: want to know someting funny? The name change wasn't proposed in congress, so no congress member could vote yes or no. However now they have a referendum (the people's voice) so the outcome of that should be respected as it does represent the (active on forum) eUNL citizens.
Citizens don't vote just to have a name changed. They vote for a whole program where the name change was one of the things that was proposed.
Im not sure its been said, but what abour United Provinces?
about*
Yes olv007, they vote for a program and then this program has to be worked out. You can be positive about the plan, but negative about the result of that plan.
yeah United Provinces, i believe we (dutch and belgium) have been called that way in the golden century
@Paladijn: You sai😛 @cocoamok: GLD complaining? Sorry, but no. Making a different proposal for the hospital in Wallonia (GLD proposed a moving plan) is not the same as complaining.
No a lot of GLD members were complaining. GLD members said referendum was not democratic, because it must be done ingame or in congress. After the outcome of the referendum for example GLD member Mark Decius said that only a few citizens had voted in favour, denouncing that referendum.
You also sai😛 @cocoamok: it would be a weak sign if government gets overruled by its citizens in a referendum, to then just put it through congress (where the government currently holds a nice majority) to push their wish through.
Government will not be overruled by the citizens, only referendum did not make it the way it was asked by a minister that did not like the name change. And it will be referendum overruled not by government but by congress. And indeed there can be a nice majority because citizens vote for these parties. If you look ingame at the members of each party you see another sign on how the population thinks about the parties. If you see the presidential elections, you can see it too.
@kixtart: You sai😛 "Most of the current citizens are not" (in favour of a name change for our nation). I suppose you look at the referendum where only registered citizens can come and where a lot of registered citizens do not find easily that they need to be in the group of eUNL citizens. I referred to the ingame citizens.
You also sai😛 "You can be positive about the plan, but negative about the result of that plan." I agree on this. The minister of Home Affairs could have done a better job. At least we agree on something on this issue 🙂
coco: "The minister of Home Affairs could have done a better job."
that isnt fair, afther all he did a good job by setting up the poll "yes or no". it isnt nessecary to say that in public.
Cocoamok, you often make your opinion as a fact. You don't know if there are more in favor or against ingame. And if the forum is an argument then something should be done to get everyone registered. You can't say suddenly that the forum isn't a good measurement, because otherwise we never should make decisions there.
AGGREED, Vote YES on the referendum.
The union needs it. Vote yes for change, save the union.
http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/referendum-for-a-new-country-name-fase-1--929234/1/20" target="_blank">http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/refe[..]1/20
Why the hell should only the government be allowed to vote on the 3 possible names? The government represents a big part of the coalition, this way the opposition (GLD) will have no saying in it. Of course the opposition is a vast minority to they won't have a good chance, but it's the principle. Since when does the government have the power to organize a referendum with a binding result, without it going to congress? I think it's really weird the congress in total has no saying in this.
"No a lot of GLD members were complaining. GLD members said referendum was not democratic, because it must be done ingame or in congress. After the outcome of the referendum for example GLD member Mark Decius said that only a few citizens had voted in favour, denouncing that referendum."
Did someone call me?
Anyway, this is similar to me being against the "constitutional reforms" As they aim solely at the forum-community. Not all people are members of the forum-community, and to base decisions on something outside of the game is wrong in my eyes. A total of 436 citizens voted during last presidential elections, and we base a decision on 77 votes on the forum (which would be even worse if you'd insert the "senate", then 12 people decide) I do not know how many times I've told this.
@AndreasIsaksson: I do not think the 60% in the referendum is a good idea. That is where the minister of Home Affairs could have done a better job I believe.
@Kixtart: You sai😛 "Cocoamok, you often make your opinion as a fact. You don't know if there are more in favor or against ingame. And if the forum is an argument then something should be done to get everyone registered. You can't say suddenly that the forum isn't a good measurement, because otherwise we never should make decisions there."
I never said I was sure if most of the citizens ingame are in favour of a name change. I sai😛 "Most of the new citizens will be pleased with a name change." And indeed I cannot prove it is like this, but knowing most of them are from Walloon, I do think most of them are in favour of a name change.
I also do not say the a poll on our forum is a bad idea. I am just referring that regardless of the outcome on the forum, many citizens would be pleased with a new name.
@Matt Johnson: Indeed ask your questions on this issue in the congress or at the government.
"it would be a weak sign if government gets overruled by its citizens in a referendum"
GLD are not for participation of people?
This government is!
We listen people, we ask them to take part of the responsibility.
We are all democrats, with a strong felling in the importance of the citizen and the whole community of Eunl!
We still thinking it's important to change the unofficial name of Eunl. But now, it's the responsibility of our citizen.
Democracy is not weakness!
Slivever: You dont understand it.
The Government has the mayority in the congress -> country.
That means that the government and its followers should always be able to reach 60% of the votes.
If such thing won't happen, its a sign that the citizens dont have faith in this government.
Doesn't have to be Trinc. Maybe just no faith in the result of this plan/idea.
It is impossible that all plans are fully supported by everyone. That the government consults the people for a tough choice is very good, or do you want them to just get a blank cheque as soon as they are elected. "Yes, we have the votes so now we dont have to listen anymore and do what we want". That doesnt sound right to me.
The choice to hold a referendum made me trust the government more, and i dont see why others wouldnt agree on that. They actually are keeping people in the loop on this, and we shouldnt be happy with it?
The whole name change dilemma is the Dutch establishment trying to accomodate a Belgian outsider game again. Its up to both groups to work with what we have, or write off the union as unworkable and artificial. A name change wont alter or help that game to resolve itself.