Is Communism wishable?
Day 1,598, 07:32
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Published in Belgium 
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by
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by Jofroi
Today’s article will be about the following quote:
We from the libertarian BCP wing are facing big threaths against our plan "direct democracy". The Belgian GOV doesn't wan't to share their power with the EBelgians.., they wan't uss workers to stay wageslaving and don't wan't our opinion or vote on new laws.
Wim is then calling for Communism. A first remark, most forum debates and vote are open to the Belgian citizens and you are invited to give your opinion if you want (see forum link at the end of the article).
This might surprise some people but I used to be a kind of economical communist, even if I never applied those ideas at country level due to several practical reasons. I could easily write 10 articles about communism, but I will write hereby a short abstract of the reasons why it is not suitable for eRepublik.
A first note: since Beta, I have never heard of any country being communist, even when so-called communists parties won congress/presidential elections.
Communism ideology can be divided in 2 parts, a political and an economical part. Let’s analyse both in the particular scope of eRepublik:
Political Communism
According to Wikipedia:
Communism (Lat. communis - common, universal) is a revolutionary socialist movement to create a classless, moneyless, and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well as a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order.
The underlying idea is that everyone is equal, the state structure isflat and everyone able to see anything and voice its choice .
The problem is that eRepublik (hint: look at the name) does not allow such voting process. There are people (President/Congress members) elected every month and they are the only ones allowed to take actions which have an effect on the game. If a forum is created by people who decide to act all equally and that a majority of congress members decides to act their own way, they will be able to do what they want (if they act against the majority, they will not be reelected the following month).
It is very sad and the political module of eRepublik is, in my opinion, one of the weak spots, but communism is not possible in politics with the current game rules.
Economical Communism
There are two opposite ways to interpretet communism from an economical perspective.
The first one, defended by Wim is:
The worker will earn back directly 100% of its production, not going through the state and taxes. Actually, this definition is more an anarchic definition than a communist definition, but let’s assume it is correct. The management would be as follows :
The state settle a 50% tax on both income and VAT and owns several Q6 companies (+ raw) to produce goods. Some people manage the companies and give the products back to the workers as soon as they have worked. Only job offers are at 1 BEF and owned by the government (taxes are so high that nobody can hire).
A first drawback: People who produce raw for themselves and want to sell them, will have to sell them to foreign countries through export licence (20 gold each!). That’ll have a huge impact on the weakest players who will have to sell their production for peanuts (rich players won’t really care, they already have several licences).
Another problem will be the cost (not even talking about the time required to manage 300 people every day, it would require 10-15 very active people daily). State would have to buy 20-30 Q6 companies (cost would be in thousands of gold).
Moreover, since organizations were deleted, it is no longer possible for countries to own companies and this should be owned by privates, with the huge risk that if the player is banned/leaves, the company is lost.
I will not talk about the other ways to interpret economical communism, because this article is already too long and conclusion would be similar (but for different reasons). For instance what is proposed by Wim with “working in foreign countries in communes” is just a tax evasion and is actually against the interests of eBelgium (this is not always true and could be debated, but it would be too long).
The fact is that communists parties in eRepublik are usually socialists parties because it is not
possible to really be communist. But I would be glad to see a proposal of practical communism implementation plan for eBelgium (more than just claiming we should do it).
Kind regards,
Jofroi
Member of left parties since V1
PS: If you want to discuss other kinds of communisms and debates, I invite you to open a discussion on the eBelgian forum: Economical Communism, Political Communism
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/me prepares for a debate in the comments section.
/me gets popcorn and beer
Support for my BCP o/
Great paint skills ! Jofroi for CP ! o/
I have a grouppy named Jofroi!! 🙂
You must read more carefully Jofroi... we are fighting for direct democracy, this is not simply a political structure. Democracy is a great invention of our ancestors to protect themselves against the abuses of wealth.
So it was in ancient Greece and Rome, and throughout history. It is not only about free speech, elections, parliament, etc. .. but also an economic component: there must be an economic benefit to the people.
Real democracy protects its people, the capitalist system only protect the capitalists manbearpigs. That's not a radical analysis, it's just the fact! Capitalism is a wild beast that devours everything, ultimately, itself.
You can only do a direct democracy if all the elected people in congress agrees with your method and accept to propose/vote in game the proposals voted in a forum.
This is something that will never happens.
And you are confusing Capitalism and democracy, this is not directly related as there can be capitalistic democracy and dictatorship (same goes for communism).
democratic capitalism ???? ROFL!!! Capitalism and democracy don't mix Jofroi.... A real democratic civilazation must protect the collective interests and concerns of all citizens as a priority and these obviously have priority over the interests of a few privileged individuals who primarily self-interest and profit.
"You can only do a direct democracy if HALF OF THE the elected people in congress agrees with your method and accept to propose/vote in game the proposals voted ELSEWHERE.
This is something that JOFROI DONT WANT ever to happens."
@ Wim
You really do not understand political and economical theories.
According to Seymour Lipset a famous political scientist societies that contains conditions of advance industrialization, urbanization, high wealth and educated population would result in democratization. Modern and advance economies are needed for democracy.
A more somber view,
According to , modernization and advance economic developments might create the prerequisite for political conflicts, the results of the conflict is uncertain as it can promote new democracy but it too can continue the status quo or even consolidate the power of the dictatorship
So to say capitalism does not mix with is silly.
Stop coppy pasting you'r previous message over and over again Konrad... i stopt reading it after you'r and jofroi's favorite really.
Is it RRRREALLLLYYYYY....
lin0leum, the proposals that are voted in game are not voted elsewhere. But they are debated elsewhere because eRepublik does not allow in game debates.
There are also votes in the eBelgian forum, but only about things that cannot be voted on eRepublik due to games limitations.
And no I do not want a direct democracy, but that's because I'm a meritocrat.
\o/
Mmm, popcorn
I seem to remember that the eCzech Republic (or eCzechoslovakia at that point) has been a communist country for a month or two, like a year ago, maybe...
Jofroi-And no I do not want a direct democracy ????
Jofroi-And no I do not want a direct democracy ?????
This is the 21 century
Jofroi-And no I do not want a direct democracy????
For the referendum, let's try to be constructive and let imagine a referendum law : "Any citizen can propose a referendum vote ingame if his proposal is supported at least by 20% of the total population of eBelgium (to prevent random proposals) and will be accepted only if 51% of the total population of eBelgium have approved the proposal".
So you will need 90 citizens to back up your proposal, and at least 236 citizens who voted in favour of this proposal to adopt it... That seems honest, and it's direct democracy... With 463 citizens in eBE, it will be nice ! And if we lower these numbers, then it won't be direct democracy anymore, but only tyrany of few ones (following BCP's logic)... Oh yes, it seems do-able, it worth a try ! : - /
21st century? Tell that to North Korean communists 😛
Now that we know that Jofroi likes to dominate, and hate's democracy.... we know that he is just out on slandering the BCP.
Jofroi loves power... does who love power are mostly corrupted persons. I think Jofroi haves a shortage of the hormones vasopressin and oxytocin, those hormones ensure the proper functioning of the social memory, a malfunction in the production of these hormones can lead to bad social behavior and is partly caused by a deficiency of one piece of DNA, the DNA directs the production of those hormones.
Nice reaction Wim... Instead of explaining/mocking Jofroi's RL problems (?), you should have reacted on my comment... Don't forget eRepublik is just a game !
@ Wim, where did I write Lipset in the past? You just cannot reply the comment since you do not have the competence to reply to it.
Also the 4th paragraph in my comment is According to Adam Przeworski, I forgot to write his name 😛
So Wim, what lame distractions are you going to say now?
Smash the reds.
aldous u remember almost well. czech socialist republic was rather bolshevik country back then.
rofl what an analysis of a despotic reasoning, wim😁
i like ur idea thomas, just lemme fix a few details:
"Any citizen can propose a referendum vote ingame if his proposal is supported at least by 20% of the ACTIVE population of eBelgium (to prevent random proposals) and will be accepted only if 51% of the ACTIVE population of eBelgium have approved the proposal."
if u want count by total population, u should question the legality of current congress, as it was elected by 19% of total ebe population (88/453). thus dont satisfy ur 20% requirement.
only as long as you keep freedom of press ;p
So how does the BCP define the ACTIVE population ? For now, it's mainly the ones who connect to the forum. As i said, if you want to limit the direct democracy process to the "active" population, defined by a few according what THEY think being active means, you will just replace a fake democracy with an other fake democracy, except that it will be BCP's fake democracy... And i don't see this option being an better one that the current situation...
Thomas : it's usual from people who cannot handle a proper debate to answer to rational arguments by nonsense...
Too bad that such an interesting theme is discussed by people that see this matter either in black or in white (from both sides).
That could have been a very nice and deep debate, with concrete implications and changes in the vision some have about the game, really. But it's impossible as it goes, with the debate made by people so closed to the other's points of views. Everyone refuses to see at the same time positive and negative aspects of ideas, and trying to develop alternatives solutions... but the aim of everybody is just to contradict the other one. And I'm not pointing at a side more than the other. It's just a debate "black versus white".
Could have been so interesting.
in the politic, i just see one good thing : a same goal (make our country stronger). I'm against dictatorship.
You can speak with everyone who makes politic, they are always on the right way.
But freedom is the best goal in this game.
Well laid out argument Jofroi! Though you're throwing pearls before swine.
88 people took part in last elections, that indicates at least basic activity. but not all of them voted for the candidates who now sit in congress so the percentage is actually even smaller than 19%. what if the congress goes with only 10 votes, are the elctions valid? does the game limit the minimal presence at congress elections somehow? if no, how can u demand any treshold for the referendum?
the drawback of congress is that its members number is limited. unlike in the direct democracy where every member of society can take part and is not left out of the process (if s/he dont want to). the fact that representative congress better cope with passivity of people, and even turns inactivity into its favour, is not its advantage. it's a defect.
the use of referenda in erep stand and fall with the number of delegates willing to support it. not with the number of bcp delegates. so stop balming bcp like we want usurp the decision making process. it's not meant to serve any party but the working masses.
jeiry i too am not pleased that we can't find common solution to this. maybe u might come up with something instead of whining.
The problem with other systems than congress is that the congress IS the decision maker whatever you want to do.If you decide on a forum to attack NL but that the congress disagree, they can make eBelgium sign a MPP with NL and you will not be able to do anything against it.
There is no minimum requirement for congress elections, I even remember months when people where elected with 0 votes for them.
I do not see any solution that could allow to bypass the congress, unless more than 50% of them agrees to follow a decision that would be taken elsewhere. But that would still be a representative democracy.
@jofroi : it's just a problem of mentality that. You can be in the congress or government with the respect of the community (you just respect the way of the population). They don't want an attack on a country, you say no simply because you are elected by the population.
lin0leum, you misunderstood my attitude.
I don't claim knowing the truth and having solutions to these problems, and I don't even claim being part of the debate. I'm just interested in the debate. And, as a interested reader, with an external point of view, I regret the attitude of many debaters. I was talking about the form of the debate, not its substance. That was just my point.
Now, if "coming up with something" is just what you need, here's a hint for your side :
Instead of proposing radical changes, that will face negative answers because of its huge gap with the actual situation... why not proposing something lighter, and goind step by step ?
You ask for referenda in the Newspapers ? Try first to experiment and show to your fellow belgians that debating in the Neswpapers (without the power of vote) about Congress matters is interesting and might have an positive impact on the discussions (by having the points of views of non-forum players, or even non-belgian players).
You could propose that, during a month or two, every Congress debate have to be presented in the Newspapers (at the begining of the debate). Maybe it will bring a few interesting things and ideas (from non-forum players), that will help the Congress Members to make up their minds. Maybe the experiment will be positive, and a success. And so maybe after a while, you could have shown and proved a first part of what you claim : it’s worthy to have a more participative proccess. And then, others will maybe be more receptive to your next step.
(to be continued)
This thread is an exemple of public debate (good or bad?). Here's another good one (in french), that shows that debates on Newspapers can be effective and interesting : http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/diplomatie-amp-alliance-construisons-une-base-de-r-eacute-flexion-1895888/1/20
As far as I know, Congress matters have never really been discussed in the Newspapers so far. What Wim and you have been doing for a few week has a very good consequence so far : you "woke up" a little bit the Newspapers, and I thank you for that. But you're doing it in a too "revendicative" and "insulting" way sometimes. And your proposals and going too far and too fast. And, to my opinion, your mixing interesting game mechanics and problems with some political grounds, that doesn't help.
You have a few good ideas (not all of them), but the way you bring them is just kamikaze. Dream of smaller changes first. And prove it brings positive things step by step. And maybe others will listen to you more carefully.
"But that would still be a representative democracy." - that would remove the congress obstacle to let everybody make the decisions. it is still flawed, but better than current state of things. i don't see any progressivier improvement atm.
i know u'd like a congress with zero votes and setup only based on experience/rank/strenght points. such going is not legitamte at all. it leads to a hyper-class society.
i'm glad u enjoyed the debate so far jeiry. i dont think it's that hostile how it might look like at the first sight.
i put forward referenda. where these eventually take place is an important but still secondary issue. i suggest the newspaper for its transparency and easier acces. if the majority of citizens want to see them happen on the phorum, well be it. ur input about newspaper discussions is correct, we shoud've started with that.
tbh the direct democracy is rather reserved step forward. i dont see it that radical, but necessary for healthy civic society. if we progress slower, we could start going backwards. u really dont want me to start radical proposals😁
i can do a little if someone feels insulted by my opinion. i may explain it further, but that's about everything i can do.
@Elynea: Indeed it is a problem of mentality, but finally it will be the congressmen who will vote. They can decide to agree or not with the citizens, but eventually it is their sole decision.
Yes Joffroi, but that could be part of their "programs" to get elected.
Unfortunatly, this is really a weak spot in eBelgium politics : the "presentation" of the Congress Members when elections show up. Really, that sucks. Probably because of these damn GoogleDocs that let the feeling that everything's decided by the "thinking heads" (and there's no need to do a campaign). But I'd really liked to see at each elections deeper and more acurate "presentation" of the people presenting themselves for Congress elections.
And that could be part of the presentation : "If a referendum is made, I promess to vote blablabla".
My point here is not to be in favour of the "referendum idea". But it's just to show that there's a solution for everything, once you're willing to think about it with a positive attitude. Anyone can disagree with an idea, but the argument "it's not possible on the game" is not a good one. Solutions don't exist just for those who don't want to search.